Naked Answers
Today Shel Israel and Robert Scoble stopped by at Amazon to present their book Naked Conversations in our Fishbowl series. As you can read in Shel's observations and Robert’s they appear shocked that we used a critical voice to address their work. Welcome to life at Amazon, we set a very high bar for our own works and we expect anyone that comes to sell us an approach to actually be prepared to really defend their ideas. Just because blogs are cool and everybody is doing them does not automatically mean that we should institutionalize them at Amazon. We have a long history of promoting customers to use their voice about our products and our operations, so if you come to Amazon to tell us our business is going to really suffer if we do not blog, you better be prepared to defend your ideas with very strong arguments and hard evidence. We expect that from anyone, externally or internally, who wants to promote an idea within Amazon.
This was my approach with challenging Shel and Robert at our lunch meeting. I wanted them abandon their fuzzy group hug approach, and counter me with hard arguments why they were right and I was wrong. Instead they appeared shell-shocked that anyone actually had the guts to challenge the golden wonder boys of blogging and not accept their religion instantly. I have been a promoter of weblogging for a long time, so I didn't feel particularly bad to challenge these two authors to tell me why customers would get a better Amazon product if we would institutionalize blogging at a wider scale around Amazon. Beyond "a more human face" and "conversations with individuals from Amazon" there was no real response how blogging will make the product named Amazon.com better for our customers given all the techniques we already use from soliciting customer feedback to discussion forums to snooping weblogs and comments sites, etc,. In my mind they had no solid data-driven answers to these challenges, which I would have expected from two seasoned evangelists. I myself actually knew some of the answers to my questions, but I was surprised to see that these guys were not prepared enough to slap me around with solid answers.
What I am a bit disappointed by is that these two smart guys did not understand what was going on, even though I clearly said that I was challenging them to a response. And they make the suggestion in their responses (at least Shel does) that Amazon doesn't "get" blogging. They are wrong. Amazon is a long time pioneer in the space of involving their customers with our product. And we really listen to our customers; any Amazon employee who encounters an issue on a forum or weblog or at any other place is empowered to escalate those issues internally immediately until they get fixed. Customer feedback is essential for Amazon and we will use all effective means to get it.
Shel wrote:
I left with the personal sense that it will be a tropical day in Seattle before any blogging between companies ad customers is forthcoming from Amazon.
Well it will certainly not happen because Shell and Robert convinced us with solid evidence of the tremendous benefits. If it does happen at a wider scale than it happens now, it will be because our customers have given us feedback that they think blogging is an excellent approach to interact with Amazon. Amazon will continue to innovate with involving customers with our sites, some of those may be weblog or wiki related techniques, many of those will be completely new approaches as people have come to expect from Amazon. We will do this because our customers want us to, not because "everybody else is doing it".
Update: In various comments and follow-up posts the authors express that they feel the questions at the presentation were rude, and that my response to their description of the meeting is not accurate. I am very sorry they feel that way, and I am sure there were people in the room who agree with them. I hope they do not hold my (perceived) rudeness as the test against which to hold those Amazonians. That said, I have also heard enough views by now that do not support Shel & Robert’s recantation of the event, and there were several people who feel it was appropriate to question them hard and deep. Most people seem to agree that my line of questioning was somewhat unforgiving when I felt they didn’t come up with the right answers. I promise to be nicer to our next guests …
Update 2 I think I prefer Nick Carr's characterisation: refreshingly blunt.
Update 3 If you read the posting well, you will find that ROI does not appear in it. That is on purpose as the questions about innovation and about providing value need to be answered first before you can talk about at what cost.
22 TrackBacks
Listed below are links to blogs that reference this entry: Naked Answers.
TrackBack URL for this entry: http://mt.vogels.net/mt-tb.cgi/21
Youve probably noticed that a bunch of big companies are getting this or that smart person to come by and chat with the troops on particular topics. Seth Godin was recently at Google, for example, and gave a great talk which is on Google Videos Read More
Feel a chill in the air? That’s because Shel Israel and Robert “The Scobleizer” Scoble - authors of the blogging book Naked Conversations - got the cold shoulder from Amazon.com during a recent show-and-tell about blogs at the online... Read More
I love this post from Werner. Blogging is a great tool, but it shouldn't be done for no reason. And when the poster child company of internet questions it, and questions it in a blog, this is the ultimate irony.All... Read More
In a refreshingly blunt post, Amazon's chief technology officer, Werner Vogels, rejects the "fuzzy group hug approach" for justifying the institutionalization of blogging within companies.... Read More
My new marketing friends have this little tactic they deploy when you disagree with them. It's called YDGI - Read More
Download the PDF. Robert Scoble - Girlie Men Robert Scoble, known as the Scobleizer to most of the blogosphere and as the guy that sucks up to Dave Winer on a regular basis to bloggers that don’t like him, plays the part of ombudsman and t... Read More
I really liked Werner Vogels’ (Amazon’s CTO) account of Scoble’s (no link, sorry, I’m not trying to be snarky just to get some backlinks) and Shel Israel’s presentation of their Naked Conversations book at Amazon: This w... Read More
[Inspired by Amazon CTO, Werner Vogel's recent post. More backstory from Shel and Rick.] [Update:] Scoble pipes in. And this is really rich: Here's some anonymous Amazon folk in the comments bragging about how smart they are. OK, if... Read More
While starting as robust discussion, the exchanges on corporate blogging between the Naked Conversations crew and Amazon CTO Werner Vogels has shown signs of turning into a bit of a palava. Mind you, while having more to say about it Shel is retainin... Read More
[Inspired by Amazon CTO, Werner Vogel's recent post. More backstory from Shel and Rick.] [Update:] Scoble pipes in.Where I gave them stuff like "blogging doubled sales at Stormhoek winery, according to its CEO." Or "Munjal Shah, CEO of Riya,... Read More
Oooh, lovely! It's IT Blogwatch, in which we look at the new Linux-based PalmOS, and wonder what happened to the old Linux-based PalmOS. Not to mention Larry Ellison's new "Habitrails" megayacht... Read More
This morning I read about a conflict during a recent lunch meeting between Amazon CTO Werner Vogels and lunch guest author/bloggers Robert Scoble and Shel Israel. These are the guys behind the book Naked Conversations. Sidenote: I tried finding that bo... Read More
... ist ja gerade heftig in der Diskussion. Bei einem missionarischen Vortrag gestern bei Amazon, wo sie der Firma das Bloggen nahebringen wollten, sind Robert Scoble und Shel Israel vom Amazon CTO Werner Vogels schwer in die Mangel genommen worden. Ich Read More
PLAYING HARDBALL Memeorandum's been abuzz with the brouhaha between the authors of Naked Conversations Robert Scoble of Microsoft and Shel Israel (a case for Corporate Blogging), and Amazon.com's CTO Werner Vogels. Om Malik summarizes the episode as fo... Read More
Blogging works. But often I'm not sure even top bloggers know why, and convincing skeptics is often difficult with out facts to back up claims of blogging success. There are, however, three very tangible reasons why blogging is so effective: Read More
Come on people, justify business blogging! Robert Scoble and Shel Israel got their collective selves clotheslined by Amazon’s CTO Werner Vogels when they presented their case for business blogging to Amazon. Apparently Werner was rude to them a... Read More
Overzealous, premature bad e-mail marketing: From: Amazon.com [mailto:promo-core@amazon.com] Sent: Monday,... Read More
There's a new game to play around the office --- pelt the champions of blogging because they don't have ALL the answers. Big companies are looking for the simple answers and the proof that blogging will mean ROI for their... Read More
I am sure all of you followed the Scoble-Shel-Werner controversy on the issue of corporate blogging. If you missed it, here is the approx. timeline... Read More
Subscribe to this weblog's
I think Amazon cares about cutomers and their feedback quite a bit more than other companies. Even so, there are times when I feel an issue doesn't get all the attention it deserves.
An influential blogger can help bring focus and attention to issues that may get lost in Amazon's customer service department. I have often wanted a forum on Amazon to voice my issues and feedback and emails have not been entirely satisfactory.
Just my two cents!
> I wanted them abandon their fuzzy group hug approach, and counter me with hard arguments why they were right and I was wrong.
Morale/brand experience are difficult to quantify. AHHHH! No numbers, run away!
> they had no solid data-driven answers to these challenges
$400M paid for MySpace. There's value in this space and in these interactions.
> We will do this because our customers want us to, not because "everybody else is doing it".
...but it's not the responsibility of customers to tell us how we should innovate.
But all in all, I agree with you. For a well-functioning company like Amazon, the upside doesn't (yet) outweigh the risks.
Werner, thanks for a well-thought-out perspective.
It seems from recent comments by Scoble that while the book is out, he and his company are still trying to figure out the role of blogs.
See, for example, Are bloggers authoritative sources at big companies? on Scobleizer today.
With more people like you asking tough questions and not being impressed by hype, we probably can figure this out and do it properly.
I think what Messrs. Israel & Scoble misunderstood about Amazon was Amazon Connect - and Amazon Author blogs.
Basically, Amazon -is- already a blogging service with 2-3 thousand bloggers. How long will it be before Amazon extends that to non-books? Not long, I'd say.
As both an author with one book doing well on Amazon (thanks!) and currently writing another on, yes, blogging, for Apress, it is absurd to say Amazon does not get blogging.
Blogging changes public power relationships. Oh yes, I think Amazon gets that in spades.
This whining about people being rude to them is rich coming from a couple of antagonists who say that corporations should open up, be less thin-skinned.
More and more it seems to me that they seem out of their depth on the very topic of their book. Naked Conversations? Maybe that should be Naive Conversations.
And talking about rude, I've only recently encountered Scoble. He engaged me in a comment thread, not I him. But when I challenged his thinking, fairly I thought, he fired me from his blog.
Either all of this is a cheap ploy to orchestrate a buzz for the book, or it's an indictment on all bloggers.
And one last thing: Why isn't Robert Scoble able to answer a simple question about the role of blogs inside his own company? He can't tell me accurately where they fit or what authority they have. In fact, I think he got his own company's policy wrong.
Do we really want people like this as the experts on blogs?
As much as I'm a huge fan and advocate of Robert and Shel, their message, and their advocacy, I also applaud your frank critical analysis of their approach. Any company considering the aspects of transparent blog-based communication should be willing to ask the hard questions, and the advocates need to be ready with the real answers. There are legal grounds that have yet to be tested. There are lots of communication policies that have yet to be properly amended, and there are TONS of marketing departments with questions about owning the message to the market that need to be answered before most corporations are ready to embrace blogging.
I think the answers are here, and that Robert and Shel in fact are on the right cluetrain, but the message needs some more massaging to succeed in the broader sense. Good lesson learned, and thanks for your frank feedback.
While I do agree with the power of blogging, I don't think that Amazon really needs to implement that bit of technology into their site. They already seem to have enough features built in to satisfy most (if not all) of their customers' needs.
Beyond my person opinion though, it seems to me that if Shel and Robert are so convinced that Amazon should implement blogging they should have been ready to answer a few pertinent questions as to why. Not being able to back up their statements with facts makes them look a bit unprofessional.
I side with Amazon on their position and the way the information about this meeting was handled. The usual butt-kissing "A list" blogger crowd seems to be all upset to find out that not every business holds up Mr. Scoble and Mr. Israel as gods, let alone authorities on blogging.
I've read many books and articles on blogging (most purchased from Amazon although I did sin once, stray from the path, and actually buy one at a garage sale) and frankly I think "Naked Conversations" is a stinker. Despite a lot of posturing, neither of those authors have ever run an enterprise on any scale let alone one the size of Amazon, so their self-imagined "expertise" really doesn't come into play for Amazon.
If they want to proselytize then they need to be able to stand up to criticism and hard questions about their viewpoints.
Jordan says:
"Morale/brand experience are difficult to quantify. AHHHH! No numbers, run away!"
Neither of those are actually difficult to quantify, as long as you do the right surveys and look at the right numbers. Brand experience is the easier of the two - reaction to brand is a core part of any market research. And morale? Well if you're paying well and people are still leaving, you know morale is low... :)
Tempest. Teapot. But it does have some valid concepts that should be looked at critically:
1) How is the reviews system for books and other items substantially different from blogs?
2) Would allocating customers some space for blogs about their purchases and wish lists be an added feature? How would such a feature be kept from becoming a sewer of link spam for pills and gambling sites?
3) How could employee/team blogs be used to enhance customer experience?
4) While I have seen various commercial entities use a blog as communication with their customers/users (c.f. http://blog.dreamhost.com , http://www.sixapart.com/about/ourblogs/ , or even http://blog.a9.com/blog/) , they are primarily web services and hosting environments. Does this relate to Amazon's business model?
Disclosure: I work at A9.com.
I think it's interesting that the hard question of "so what's the ROI" was asked and Israel and Scoble couldn't come up with any answers (staring at him almost like he was from another planet).
If you are a small company or organization and want to communcicate directly with a group of users, blogging may be the way to go.
But for a large company? That may actually complicate matters and the jobs of people who duties include collecting customer feedback. (Imagine one person becoming the face of Amazon and going to that person for all sorts of things like customer support issues, what a mess). It's not about being less thin skinened -- it's about logistics of the customer experience.
And as a customer of Amazon, I want the management to ask these questions.
Werner,
May I send you a "preview" copy of my book (the bound galley) - "The Corporate Blogging Book" - to be published in August by Penguin Portfolio? I think it may be the first really useful, clear-eyed look at blogging as a business strategy and communications tool for big companies. It's up on Amazon now but the cover isn't showing yet. Let me know at wordbiz(at)gmail.com and I'll get a copy sent to you.
Amen. It's refreshing to see someone take the "stary eyed believers" to task, where were you in 1995-2000?
Blogs are not a business paradigm, and not having a business reason to implement blogs does not indicate that you don't "get" blogs.
I'm not associated with Amazon beyond being an occasional customer, but:
1. I can't see why Amazon would want/need blogs, and I think the suggestion that they do need blogs indicates a profound lack of understanding of Amazon's business model.
2. To even think that Amazon does not value the dialog with and between customers as well as user generated content is insane and would tend to make me think that they are very confused and have somehow failed to actually visit amazon.com.
Hopefully they will gain some business savvy from this exchange.
Oh, and MySpace has value, like any other media, because it has audience, not that the tech is that compelling. If anything MySpace should be used as an example of the value of online community (which Amazon has plenty of) and not that they have blogging employees.
I enjoyed reading the back and forth between the authors of Naked Conversations. I have used Amazon for quite sometime and have always had a great experience. To understand Robert Scobles point one has to work for a company with an image problem, (I believe). I have never had an axe to grind with Amazon, but with Microsoft and their products, (which I do use), I have some gripes. Robert seems to be another product of the Microsoft machine and there are bound to be bugs with any Microsoft release. Especially a 1.0 Release.
I've just read your's, Robert's and the other guy's posts and I have absolutely no idea what they were actually proposing Amazon do with blogs.
There is a certain faceless quality to Amazon that Bezos can no longer make up for with his whimsical mass media appearances. I wouldn't mind a blog or two as a way of communicating information. I think there are actually a lot of interesting possibilities but I think all solutions should be able to be supported.
No numbers? There's almost always a way to get around that and to discover some in the process. Really, there's so much data being gathered online, one would expect something could be put together to address quant concerns without trying to wave them away.
Maybe you played the arrogant professor role a bit too hard. I think that corporate presenters should be able to handle that but if that doesn't go over too well maybe you can learn to question without putting on a display.
arrogant professor? no way! he is an engineer asking an obvious question, he gets blue smoke for an answer, so he taps his clipboard with his pencil! right on, werner! quite rightly so!